Comments on Musings of the Lame: Life as a Birthmother: It's not about you, but it is..

Excellent post! Anyone who wants more facts, or ...

2011-11-02T11:54:23.012-04:00

Excellent post!

Anyone who wants more facts, or a book to share with legislators or anyone else - THE STORK MARKET: America's Multi-Billion Dollar Unregulated Adoption Industry - THE bible on the subject! - is available at HALF PRICE on Amazon. Scroll down to "new and used" and look for DIRECT2YOU and get a copy for just $7.50.

260 pages; over 300 footnotes. Every fact documented!

Never has any reviewer been able to point to one incorrect FACT!

If you haven't read it, there's no time like now.

*** It is every bit as timely and vital now as the day it was written. ***

So honored to have known you when you first wrote ...

2011-11-02T03:19:41.731-04:00

So honored to have known you when you first wrote this article and that we've walked this journey of adoption issues together for a long time! Love you!

I absolutely loved this post (came over from Kelse...

2010-11-11T00:09:51.534-05:00

I absolutely loved this post (came over from Kelsey's blog). It gives me courage to post the misgivings I've had recently about being a hopeful adoptive parent. You've hit on everything I've been thinking about lately, and I love how you said it all. I couldn't stop reading. I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to share this post. Thank you for re-posting this.

An adoptee has two mothers and two fathers. As a ...

2010-10-16T14:36:35.036-04:00

An adoptee has two mothers and two fathers. As a child I are taught to play nice or I couldn't play. A lesson that stood me well. Why can't the adoptees and the two mothers and two fathers play nice together when all agree change needs to happen and happen now.

Why does it always have to come down to personal stories and slams and digs - Claud asked everyone to forget what was done before
in the post we ALL just read.

Lets just join forces once and for all - take away the BEFORE and focus on the FUTURE - make it a better world than what we live in.

Really it is that simple...stop throwing the past up and creating more wars. Reconcilliation works, just read Mandella's words if you don't believe me.

We all need to ask role can I play? And am I living up to that role and making a difference?

Wonderful post Karen WB I feel the exact same way ...

2007-04-06T17:37:00.000-04:00

Wonderful post Karen WB I feel the exact same way as you do. Adoption is a failed social experiment, and it has nothing to do with children, nor has it ever.

Only in a real case of child abuse should a child ever not be raised with their own parents. If that is the case the child should have the right to be raised with relatives, failing that in a legal MONITORED guardianship where the guardian is actually monitored to see how they are treating the child. Not the adopters are saints crap and bull spewed by adopters and brokers.

Think adoption is wonderful? Go to the website Adopters Who Abuse and Kill?

Adoption is business, it is about selling babies and children? How to improve it? Abolish it!

good grief. i'm an adoptee, and completely blown ...

2007-04-03T19:22:00.000-04:00

good grief. i'm an adoptee, and completely blown away. what an absolutely amazing post. bravo:))))

jeni

"Maybe things can change.
It's worth trying to ...

2007-04-02T22:24:00.000-04:00

"Maybe things can change.
It's worth trying to me."

Thanks, Claud. And thanks, many natural mothers here, including Nicole, who get that many are trying to get it and do something about it.

Incredible.........

2007-04-02T00:13:00.000-04:00

Incredible.........

But isn't this the bottom line, Claud, in your own...

2007-04-01T18:55:00.000-04:00

But isn't this the bottom line, Claud, in your own words?

"Do you want to have a universe, a climate in this counrty where the governement spends money on known progams that fail...?"

Adoption fails... it has failed. There is no "reforming" what has failed from the beginning to today.

And adoption isn't broken because it never worked to begin with except for the adoption industry and the people who adopt.

It has FAILED and miserably. And what has failed and doesn't work needs to be replaced with what can work. What can work is for all adoption social workers to FULLY support ALL mothers whether married or not, whether financially stress or not, whether young or not. Then there would be almost no mothers needing to surrender their child!

Of course, realisically we know that there will always be some. In that case the adoption workers should turn to "kinship care" which is their social duty, which by the way, they too often do NOT turn to (the Stephanie Bennett case is a prime, recent example).

And when those two options are not doable, we have legal guardianship whereby the child is raised by unrelated people who are first very carefully screened and deemed worthy to be a legal guardian to a child whose original name (and birth certificate) is NOT changed and who forever has full access to all natural family information and to all natural family members.

And the money the government uses to reward adopters, which is OUR tax dollars, should be used for the above three humane alternatives to the failed, man-made, social experiment called adoption.

KarenWB
OriginsUSA, www.originsusa.org

Claud, I think you're awsome! I just loved what yo...

2007-03-30T04:58:00.000-04:00

Claud, I think you're awsome! I just loved what you said about the truth and the truth growing. That truth is the only way we're going to create a better world for our children and also to gain enough understanding to live in the here and now in a way that we can live with ourselves and also be there for everybody else.

I commend you and everybody else on these blogs for speaking the truth.

I can't believe people spend so long running from it... The truth is painfully beautiful, because it's REALITY... who the hell wants to live in some bubble world. Denial's not fun. It's scary and aggressive and ignorant and pointless.

Best wishes for your reunion with your son.

Whew! I am all about co-parenting situautions.
2007-03-27T12:51:00.000-04:00
Whew! I am all about co-parenting situautions.

I don't know about legally, but as far as really and trully sharing in the parenting and all being very involved and spending a lot of time together and being there for the child...heck yeah!

I am lucky, that the couple who adopted my daughter are kind of like that. Although unfortunately I think it's to some degree because they got divorced and feel guilty...but whatever...

Adoptive parents really do have th emost power to make change. And all the change that Claud and Nic and everybody else writes about is a common goal among all people who want to see adoption reform.

You know, even if there were people who wanted to adopt and just kind of wanted to get a baby and not deal with any of it...I would be willing to bet that even in most of THOSE cases if they could be offered a situation where they KNEW that the woman placing the child had been offered all kind of help to parent her child, that she had been offered strengths based counseling, going over all the positives that she has to offer her child and looking to find solutions to problems that she was concerned about....

I think it would be a relief! No one wants to adopt a child thinking they really are giving a home to a child without one, and then find out that the original mother of the child actually wanted to parent and that she placed believing that she wasn't good enough just because she was a single parent and had a very low income situation.

I don't think ANYONE wants to participate in an unethical adoption that is exploitive of bioparents. But even MORE than that, there really are adoptive parents who are listening to EVERYTHING.....

And their compassionate spirits...are so important if anything is ever going to change....
-sunny

The fact is some of us APs do care. If we didn't c...

2007-03-27T10:56:00.000-04:00

The fact is some of us APs do care. If we didn't care we wouldn't be reading Claud's blog, or any natural mom's or adoptees blogs, or supporting the efforts of those organizations working on reform (why should we start our own group when we can support groups already in place?), or writing to our Congresspeople on various issues, or posting on SofA, or discussing ethics issues on their own blogs like Dawn and Margie...we would be at the "Adoption is All Joy All the Time" blogs and sites of which there are plenty.

We don't have to hear your truth as mothers, we don't have to listen to the truths of adoptees..those of us that listen, those of us that actively seek those truths do so because we give a shit. We could very easily surround ourselves with only those voices praising adoption and calling us saints for saving these children from the horrors of crack whore birthmothers or whatever bullshit stereotype fits....plenty of APs do so.

Perhaps we don't do everything exactly the way you'd like us to, we have our own truths, however you cannot say that no APs care, because that is demonstrably false as evidence by our mere presence here on Claud's comments.

Look, I am not disagreeing at all that bad things ...

2007-03-27T09:30:00.000-04:00

Look, I am not disagreeing at all that bad things have happened. That to me is part and parcal of the truth. Thats the personal experiences on BEBA are REAL, that there was and IS coercion, that there are sides with money and power who seek to profit from sealed records to hide their secrets, and transfering the babies, etc...Those are facts. How I was stripped of my motherhood by mistruths and wrongful enabling, how you could were tied down and given no choice at all...FACTS.
And was happened in the past DOES matter, as it shows us the mistales and the things that must STOP happening.
But to me, my social worker is NOT here. The parents of my sone are NOT here ( and even if they were..I don't blame them..they could have been anyone really..if not that couple, then there would have been another), the director of the agency that orchastrated the policies that let me throw it all away is NOT here..she's dead actually. My mother is NOT here, she's dead too.
Who do i have to fight? The industry..and with the money and the poswer they have..heck, I will take what i can on my side.
The way I see it..most of the adoptive parents who have small children how and are able to see the truths..are of my age group. They have grown up much like I have,in the same world. They have seen the same world I have, they have expeirenced many of the same things..and I assumed some same values. They are not responsible for MY pain, my life, my son's loss...so why am I going to hate on them?
Can they be guilty of wanting a cild, sure..if that IS something to be judged for. Can they be responsible for not knowing, trusting the professionals, doing what they thought was the right way? Sure...but SO AM I. If I want them to buy into the fact that I had really no choice and did what I thought I shoud do rather than making an informed choice and WANTING to have this life, then I have to extend the same thing. If I want them to understand that that I am not miserable, nor bitter nor filled ith rage, then I have to extend to them that they are not miserable baby stealers too. It is called getting beyond the sterotypes and trying to find what we do agree with and work form there.
Yeah, it hasn't happened before. And maybe it won't happen again.
But kids use to be blank slates, and APs were just told to love them ..that was accepted. People don't see it the same way anymore. People treat kids differntly, they view adoption differntly, we view the world differently. Maybe things can change.
It's worth trying to me. Its worth it when I read of an adoptive parent who wants to know what to tell a person what they should be thinking of to parent..rather then..ooooh another baby for me! It's worth it when I am asked for recourses, or what reading should be passed on, or who to write to.
SO yeah, maybe the older parents of older BSE adoptees are NOT going to want to join in here, but hey...they all get older and they will DIE eventally! I still plan on being here. Fighting for changes and truth.
And if this time it doesn't work..well more ground work for the next fool, more mistakes for them to learn form.

Please please read some of our stories at
2007-03-27T02:29:00.000-04:00
Please please read some of our stories at Mothers Exploited By Adoption and the pain and loss and feelings of violation and helplessness. This is why many of us feel that adoption cannot be reformed and that those who took our babies will never join our side, because there is nothing in common, no equality of power, no fairness, just those of us who lost our babies against our will, and those who got our babies.

It took me several years after the loss of my son to realize that it had been a form of rape and that I had had no choice. That the love I felt for him after his birth did NOT go away and that i was NOT "getting over it." Twenty-seven years later I still wake up in the middle of the night screaming from nightmares most of which are the loss of him or mothers losing their infants. Do adopters suffer like this from adopting? Do they have to spend hundreds of dollars on antidepressants to try not to commit suicide from the pain and grief? when 24 years of therapy does NOT do a damn thing for the pain. :( And frankly, NO adopter cares!

"Adoption is a violent act, a political act of aggression towards a woman who has supposedly offended the sexual mores by committing the unforgivable act of not suppressing her sexuality, and therefore not keeping it for trading purposes through traditional marriage. The crime is a grave one, for she threatens the very fabric of our society. The penalty is severe. She is stripped of her child by a variety of subtle and not so subtle manoeuvres and then brutally abandoned." - Joss Shawyer, Death by Adoption, Cicada Press (1979)

Reform has to start somewhere. I don't know where ...

2007-03-27T00:30:00.000-04:00

Reform has to start somewhere. I don't know where that "aha" moment began for anyone else, but I KNOW when it began for ME. I can only speak for MYSELF. My daughter is only 5 years old...and that is how long I have been researching.

I've been reading alot of adoption blogs lately that have brought alot of "issues" in my mind to the forefront. Some I agree with, others I don't. But I like the fact that everyone has a "voice". It inspires others to dig deeper, think deeper. It makes us all do a gut check and think, "Could this have been handled better? Could *I* have handled this better?". Some people will automatically think, "Nah...." and give the subject no further thought. For me, I've thought about it and been haunted by it every day since my daughter was born. I think that is where passion is born. Where you can look at yourself in a situation and still have that "aha" moment that YOU are not the only one in this situation. Maybe it's empathy. Maybe it's humanity. Maybe it's just passion. Who knows? Whatever it is, it's lit a fire beneath us to want to reach out and CHANGE THINGS! How can that be bad?

Or we could just throw our hands in the air and gi...

2007-03-27T00:27:00.000-04:00

Or we could just throw our hands in the air and give up before we even start. Yeah. Because all kinds of change is affected that way.

As for me, I'd rather try to promote change, no matter what the naysayers say. Triad or not, it's a matter of semantics. Try "those of us affected by adoption" if it's more pleasing to you. Whatever works. Never mind those in the Baby Scoop Era. We can work with adoptive parents who have adopted recently.

And it does seem like your mind is made up so it doesn't make much sense for me to try to change it. All due respect, but I prefer to hope for the best.

Mom2one, you said "Put all parts of the triad toge...

2007-03-27T00:10:00.000-04:00

Mom2one, you said "Put all parts of the triad together as one force and that is POWERFUL."

the problem is that teh "triad" is a complete and utter MYTH. Adoption is NOT a "triad". It is a four-party transaction! There are brokers and customers on one side, and mothers and babies on the other side. (Ignoring those mothers like some who seem to have willingly and joyfully gave away their infants.) The fact is that on one side is the broker held the power to take the baby from its mother and the customer who had the financial and social power to buy that baby. One the other side are the mother and baby, BOTH without any power to remain and without ANY options. Vulnerable, exploited, and with NO choice what-so-ever. And a coerced choice is NOT a "choice" at all.

There is no triad, and there is NO way for adopters, adoptees and natural mothers to work together.

Sorry, Claud, but adopters have our children and had the power to buy our children and paid their agents to dismember our families.

It is very sad. Other groups have tried to get adopters involved to work on reform. In 40 years of trying, it has NEVER worked, because adopters as a WELL-MONEYED LOBBY have the NCFA which they and their agencies (with their adoption fees) support and pay, along with other lobbyists in Washington. The adopters have the NCFA. That is a fact. And if 1% of them give lip service to reform, the other 99% of them are still funding the NCFA.

Will adopters form their own open records and adoption reform groups and put their money there instead of funding the NCFA, "Choose Life" license plates, "Safe Haven" acts, pro-adoption crisis pregnancy clinics, etc. Will they form organizations to fight exploitation, coercion, and records fraud? I'm interested in seeing the answer to this. I have not seen any form so far. Meanwhile, adoptees and natural parents have led the fight. To reform adoption is NOT a priority for those who hold all the power and all the cards.

p.s. Ask adopters who got their babies during the Baby Scoop Era if they support reform. Those I see here have adopted recently, not 30, 40 or 50 years ago.

"You took the words right out of my mouth" quoted ...

2007-03-26T22:06:00.000-04:00

"You took the words right out of my mouth" quoted from a Meatloaf song. I have linked this post to my blog. We have got to stop arguing so hatefully amongst each other. We must change adoption. The only way I know how to do it is to my money where my mouth is. I write my legislators, I write newspapers, and I write on my blog. If I could get to Austin or Indianapolis I would shake down the house.

Well, I guess I was told by a totally anonymous pe...

2007-03-26T22:02:00.000-04:00

Well, I guess I was told by a totally anonymous person!! PLEASE!! Hmmmm I have the balls to say who I am and what I believe in...please don't assume you know every nuance of my sons adoption even if you choose to read my blog. It is not all there somethings are not for public broadcasting and I have the respect of my sons first mom to protect here and her life as well...one can be and ADOPTER and believe in reform and want reform....

like Jen CO said is you have something productive to say ...OWN IT and put your name to it...I am up for learning and making a difference what are you up for? Never mind I am sure you won't own it.

For what it's worth, I hate the changed birth cert...

2007-03-26T20:30:00.000-04:00

For what it's worth, I hate the changed birth certificates. Hate them. But it's all we have. We can try to get that changed; I would love to. I think it's assinine to have a certificate that says that my son was born to me; he wasn't. I think it disrespects him and his mother. In a way, it disrespects me and his father too, because it basically makes us out to be morons who buy into this "he's ours now; we even gave birth to him" nonsense.

I meant for this to be short but got into a rant; my bad. Anyways, reform is desperately needed, but I so agree with Nicole. At 5 1/2, my son's world would be devastated if he were to be removed from us and taken to another family.

This post is all about the triad working together, not going after each other for past "sins." That's what I so love about what Claud has written. It doesn't matter anymore as long as we can work together from here on out. And we can. Put all parts of the triad together as one force and that is POWERFUL.

Sylvia - I would give anything to have my daughter...

2007-03-26T20:09:00.001-04:00

Sylvia - I would give anything to have my daughter's mother's name on her birth certificate. Having my name there is moronic. But see, I didn't have a choice.

Claud, I love this post. I think your approach is brilliant.

I really think that adopters who actually DO suppo...

2007-03-26T20:09:00.000-04:00

I really think that adopters who actually DO support reform should put their money where they mouths are and begin by reuniting the family they (intentionally or unintentionally) dismembered. If you did it in ignorance, not realizing your part in coercion, then apologize and admit your error. Everyone makes mistakes. But raising a child that was obtained through coercion and exploitation of a vulnerable mother is immoral and unethical. It is like keeping "stolen goods."

My daughter isn't an object to be bounced around from place to place just to benefit the adults.

If her aparents came to me today and said, "It's just NOT RIGHT that you don't have your daughter, it's so completely wrong that we want to give her back to you," I'm honestly not sure what I'd say.

The selfish part of me would accept. My heart would be leaping for joy.

But I suspect ultimately, I wouldn't go through with it.

She's almost six years old. How would removing her YET AGAIN from a family she knows and loves, really solve anything?

Would that be fair to her?

I don't know.

But I know that once upon a time, I made a decision to sever her from one family (mine), partially because I was pressured and had no choice, yes, but partially also because I was selfish, and I wanted to get married without the added complication of already having a kid... I wanted to finish school without doing midnight feedings around my term papers... and so on.

Once upon a time, I had some damn selfish motivations in splitting my daughter off from her family.

I really don't think I could live with myself if I did the same thing all over again... even with the APs blessing.

I'm not daft. I'd probably ask for a shared custody arrangement... or at least look into that. No, I wouldn't turn down the offer completely.

But to expect APs to hand over their kids, years later, and use THAT as the litmus test of their devotion to reform, seems woefully misguided to me, when not even I am sure I'd want that to happen to my daughter.

Legal guardianship? It doesn't bestow all the same rights on the ADOPTEE/CHILD as adoption does. Guardianship has problems, too. Have you considered that maybe some APs actually weigh the cost of adoption (closed records, falsified birth certs) and honestly come to the conclusion that the cost of guardianship is WORSE? It's possible.

These black and white judgments just don't work in a gray world.

I miss my daughter. I want her back. I wish I'd never relinquished.

But there is no undoing that now, and focusing on a pipe dream of getting her back isn't productive now--not for my growth and journey, and not for the cause of adoption reform.

"Jen co, if you have gone through the list of coer...

2007-03-26T19:01:00.000-04:00

"Jen co, if you have gone through the list of coercion tactics and can truly say that none of them were used on the natural mother of your child, if indeed she got to keep and raise her child past it's birth, to nurture and breastfeed that child for several weeks until the hormonal and bodily changes of birth were past and any postpartum depression diagnosed and treated, if indeed the mother was assured of adequate non-poverty-level financial support and human rights protection as per Article 25 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, then you are indeed on the side of justice and are not the type of adoptive parent that I am referring to. I can then trust you. I would like to meet more like you then, as you would be the first one."

You're right. I'm evil. Nothing I can tell you about my story will make you see otherwise. @@@ I'm sure nothing my daughter's natural mother and family would tell you would change your mind either. Again, you don't know my story...but that doesn't seem to matter to you.

"But Claud and Brandi, i don't see how you can enlist the support of anyone who has profited from exploitation. They have a vested interest in seeing exploitation continue and there is a very hurting mother out there who was robbed of her child."

Yep, that's why we're all here. We want the exploitation to continue. That's why us evil adopters have very close relationships with our kids natural families. Because we want to see them screwed over even further.

"Nevermind that if an adopter was truly concerned about lies and justice, they would not have adopted and thus obtained a falsified birth record obliterating the natural mother, but would have performed a permanent legal guardianship that would not have involved falsifying documents to say that they had given birth."

Not so. I am truly concerned about lies and justice...yet I did adopt.

It is a crime to falsify government documents in all other instances -- so why is adoption exempt?"

Good question. That's why I'm here. Open records and legally enforceable open adoption contracts, among other issues that need reform. But don't pay any attention to me. Your mind is already made up regardless of what I tell you.

I went into the adoption process being somewhat naive but completely unaware of the issues being discussed here. Throughout the process I found many things that concerned me, which was why I started doing research. My personal experience led me to believe that there is a need for reform. If that makes me suck, then so be it.

Jennifer

brandi, I am talking about what they can do to mov...

2007-03-26T18:44:00.000-04:00

brandi, I am talking about what they can do to move forward. They can take the future action of undoing the damage they did, if indeed they relied on coercion and exploitation to obtain a child.

if they do this, then i can trust them. and only then.

Jen co, if you have gone through the list of coercion tactics and can truly say that none of them were used on the natural mother of your child, if indeed she got to keep and raise her child past it's birth, to nurture and breastfeed that child for several weeks until the hormonal and bodily changes of birth were past and any postpartum depression diagnosed and treated, if indeed the mother was assured of adequate non-poverty-level financial support and human rights protection as per Article 25 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, then you are indeed on the side of justice and are not the type of adoptive parent that I am referring to. I can then trust you. I would like to meet more like you then, as you would be the first one.

But Claud and Brandi, i don't see how you can enlist the support of anyone who has profited from exploitation. They have a vested interest in seeing exploitation continue and there is a very hurting mother out there who was robbed of her child.

Nevermind that if an adopter was truly concerned about lies and justice, they would not have adopted and thus obtained a falsified birth record obliterating the natural mother, but would have performed a permanent legal guardianship that would not have involved falsifying documents to say that they had given birth. It is a crime to falsify government documents in all other instances -- so why is adoption exempt?

Sylvia, this seems to be the exact discussion of p...

2007-03-26T17:11:00.000-04:00

Sylvia, this seems to be the exact discussion of past actions that Claud was speaking against.

Rather than put a number of APs on the defensive with regard to their own adoptions, the specifics of which you know nothing about, can we please all find a way to move forward, together, towards reform?

What can we all do, today, to help, regardless of our position on the adoption plane?

Comments on Musings of the Lame: Life as a Birthmother: It's not about you, but it is..

Excellent post! Anyone who wants more facts, or ...

So honored to have known you when you first wrote ...

I absolutely loved this post (came over from Kelse...

An adoptee has two mothers and two fathers. As a ...

Wonderful post Karen WB I feel the exact same way ...

good grief. i'm an adoptee, and completely blown ...

"Maybe things can change.It's worth trying to ...

Incredible.........

But isn't this the bottom line, Claud, in your own...

Claud, I think you're awsome! I just loved what yo...

The fact is some of us APs do care. If we didn't c...

Look, I am not disagreeing at all that bad things ...

Reform has to start somewhere. I don't know where ...

Or we could just throw our hands in the air and gi...

Mom2one, you said "Put all parts of the triad toge...

"You took the words right out of my mouth" quoted ...

Well, I guess I was told by a totally anonymous pe...

For what it's worth, I hate the changed birth cert...

Sylvia - I would give anything to have my daughter...

I really think that adopters who actually DO suppo...

"Jen co, if you have gone through the list of coer...

brandi, I am talking about what they can do to mov...

Sylvia, this seems to be the exact discussion of p...

"Maybe things can change.
It's worth trying to ...