More deep thinking...

God, I adore this woman. Sunny has great things to say and a grat real, raw way of saying it..with compassion, with heart, with kindness, but still with real anger that makes sense. Go read her now!! Also, a very good article that should also be looked at and thought about. Also, while I am at linkys today...a poll of natural moms...over 70% are opting to "not relinqish" if they could do it over again knowing what they know now. That really says something about regret and being informed about what we did or had done to us. And damn, I have to get ready for work!!
By Claudia Corrigan D'Arcy aka FauxClaud on Friday, March 10, 2006

23 comments:

  1. over 70% are opting to "not relinqish" if they could do it over again knowing what they know now. That really says something about regret and being informed about what we did or had done to us.

    It says something only about the people who chose to participate in the poll's regret, not about all mothers who relinquished, because it's a self selecting sample group.

    Although I feel domestic adoption as a whole is in major need of reform, and that is one of the reasons I frequent your blog, generalizing based on bad methodology isn't helpful, IMO.
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  2. contrary to what brandi h says, i would guess that a more accurate sample would probably warrant similar results.

    it makes me sad that people really think mother should be happy to give away their children. what does that say about mankind should that be true? do we really want mothers to not care?
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  3. you cannot get randomly-selected participant groups for these studies because all the records are sealed. ALL studies would have to be self-selected.
    70% is loooowww!!! Trackers International's survey of 1000 participants in the U.K. found that 98.9% were coerced. http://www.uktrackers.co.uk/
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  4. As someone once said, "If you think that adoption is such a wonderful thing, which one of YOUR children would you like to surrender?"
    A very painful idea for anyone who has a child. How can anyone think that a mother would choose to do it willingly?
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  5. compare the infant adoption rates for Australia vs. America and you can see just how many over here are unnecessary adoptions.
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  6. contrary to what brandi h says, i would guess that a more accurate sample would probably warrant similar results.

    Guessing isn't a good way to reach correct conclusions, in my opinion.

    it makes me sad that people really think mother should be happy to give away their children.

    Who are you referring to as "people who think mothers should be happy to give away their children"?

    what does that say about mankind should that be true? do we really want mothers to not care?

    False dilemma and a strawman. Nobody is arguing that mothers shouldn't care.
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  7. How can anyone think that a mother would choose to do it willingly?

    Because not everyone wants to be a parent. Don't you understand that not everyone is the same?

    I wish you would quit hiding behind anonymity.
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  8. "It says something only about the people who chose to participate in the poll's regret, not about all mothers who relinquished, because it's a self selecting sample group."

    I agree with Brandi. Most women who relinquished children aren't on the internet participating in these polls or forums.
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  9. "How can anyone think that a mother would choose to do it willingly?"

    Our son's birthmother did. She even hired her own attorney, her own counselor and went online to potential adoptive parent registries. She was already a mother, was financially in a position to parent, in a relationship, had support from family and friends. She even had suffered from secondary infertility! She chose it willingly.
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  10. To those of you quoting stats and comparisons, how about some links or citations, please, so I can research myself?
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  11. Here's what I think that poll says:

    I think it says that there are some women who wouldn't relinquish if they could do it all over again.

    I don't think we can make any assumptions about percentages, because as Brandy said, this is not a scientifically valid study.

    That being said, I do think even a "few" (whatever that number is) women regretting it, even a "few" women placing without all the information, is horribly wrong. So even if the real numbers of women who regret are much lower, there is still work to be done, IMO. And actually.... I think most of us agree with THAT statement, that there is still room for reform. So.... I dunno... maybe I'm saying "Let's not fight, please?"
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  12. Semantics. I used the wrong word "guess".

    I intended to suggest that a more scientific, valid study would be interesting and encouraging to see and could likely show the same results. And yes, yes, it could also likely show completely different results.

    Thanks for posting the info Claud. Very interesting.
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  13. Thank you for the links Claud. I think the poll is very telling, because I always thought the site was geared towards adoption (though the people who are on there are from all paths).

    As for the article, I agree 100%. And, I'm glad that someone has written it. Poor women are discriminated against even though they may be perfectly good mothers! Yes, it is about the money. It's easy, I guess, to say it isn't when people have it, but when people don't have it, it is apparent.
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  14. Oh dear ones...
    First..the problem with adoption studies is huge. As I have said and as Anon also did...there is NO WAY to get a real number..too many secrets, too many who cannot be found.
    Second..as Heather pointed out ..this is from a Forum that has had a huge reputation as being 100% adoption friendly..so much so that the majority of heavy anti adoption folks don't go there, have little respect for folks like me that do go there, and don't believe that any non pro adoption messages can be heard there. I would say that the pure numbers of folks that are there are a pretty good samlpling of people who have been involved in the adoption arena. There are ALL walks of life there..those who claim to be Ok and those not, but the nots are greatly outnumbered. This is not a sampling from a group such as AAI. If you google ANYTHING adopttion related..then the first site you get too is Adoption.com. SO the firt timers, new comers, all end up there..and many have no need to go anywhere else. Truthfully the numbers there shocked me being where it is.
    Third...I have to agree with N here...the fact that 70% of any population or sampling says that they would not do it again is HUGE. Dismissing it by sayig that it is not accurate or that it doesn't include non internet users or whatever..is just a lame attempt to justify ones own hopeful views and throw your head in the sand. I see no differnece in a woman convinceing herself that it is OK by repeating over and over again "its for the best , it's for the best" than a woman trying to feel OK about a systenm with obvious flaws by saying "she was willing, she was willing" OK Maybe SHE was, but what about everyone ELSE??
    And Fourth, THIS Anon is allowed and welcomed. I know who this Anon is and why she is Anon. And if there is going to be ANY person who can use Anon..this person has full rights to the name.
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  15. Claud, do you read and post to the newsgroup alt.adoption? I've always thought that would be a good place to get a more representative sample of first mothers.
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  16. I agree that the poll was self-selecting. You are talking about mothers that still feel strongly enough about adoption (one way or another) to seek out a community on the internet. However, I don't think you will get much more middle of the road than adoption.com. I frequented it for over a year and saw a diversity of views from birth/first/natural moms. The best way to get a true statistic would be to have open records. I used to be a hairdresser, and I am lisenced by the state. So every time there is an issue concerning hair dressers I am part of a mass mailing, even though I haven't done hair since 1987. If we had the same kind of data base with adoption, we would come much closer to learning "the truth." But again, that would be self selecting, because people would have to decide whether to answer it or not. This is my view- even if it's a minority of moms who said they would not relinquish again, we need to look at that. We need to look at the reasons why, and we need to look at if those reasons could be addressed and fixed. For some it couldn't, but for others it could and should be fixed.

    I also think we need to find a different word than "happy" for "content" birth moms. My daughter's mother is happy that Apple is doing well, she is happy to see her grow up, she is happy to be a part of our family, she is happy we met, she is happy with her life, but I wouldn't say that she is happy that she had to choose what to do with an unplanned pregnancy. She has told me she doesn't regret it, and she would do it again. BUT that doesn't mean she doesn't wish those circumstances that made adoption the best choice for her, hadn't happened. If Apple had come at a different time in her life, with a different partner, I know she would have parented. But then it would all be different wouldn't it ? So I use "happy" on occassion as a default, because I can't think of another word. Basically because I think mothers who regret placing their children are "unhappy" with adoption.
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  17. It would be an enormous project to track down nmothers. (if the records still even exist)

    Most of the Maternity homes of the 50's and 60's closed down decades ago.

    The agency my family worked with dodn't ask for any post adoption contact or updates. Even if they still were in business (which they aren't) their info on me would be from 1967.

    I rather doubt there will be an national accounting of nmoms. Like I'm sure Catholic Charities is never going to track down their past clients.
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  18. Rereading my comment- I don't mean fixed- as in making moms happy they relinquished. I mean fixed as in making it so moms who wish they hadn't relinquished, don't relinquish in the first place. Again you would never get 100%, because there will never be a situation that is perfect. But we certainly could do better.
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  19. To the particular anon. who suggested that alt.a might be a good place to find a more representative sample of first mothers.

    You're kidding, of course.

    (and that's coming from someone who has read and posted at alt.a for yonkers and learned more from there than anywhere else, without exception)
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  20. To the particular anon. who suggested that alt.a might be a good place to find a more representative sample of first mothers.

    You're kidding, of course.

    (and that's coming from someone who has read and posted at alt.a for yonkers and learned more from there than anywhere else, without exception)
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  21. These are the most complex issues we will ever face.

    There are no right answers. Only the hope that we may do something well.

    As a long time child court advocate it is my desire to create a greater awareness for the issues that concern abused and neglected children and the families that adopt them.

    My blog covers the experiences that I have had working with fifty children in the family court system over ten years. Please feel free to share and respond to my blog;

    www.invisiblechildren.org/weblog
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  22. I apologize to you all. Actually, I think all of you have very valid points, but some of the bitterness, logicial fallacies, and ignorance I have come across in reseraching reform and anti-adoption snetiment has made me jump to defensiveness too quickly. I am very sorry and hope to be forgiven.

    There are no easy choices when faced with an unplanned pregnancy (I have been there). Termination is not easy, parenting is not easy, and relinquishing is not easy. As someone else mentioned, it's difficult to be happy or content after such circumstances.

    I do wish to work towards adoption reform; we, in fact, were so disgusted with the standard procedures of both domestic and international agency adoption we planned to do foster parenting only.

    My son's first parentd sought us out after hearing about us, we didn't even have a homestudy and weren't advertising or in any way looking for an adoption situation. I don't think relinquishing is the best choice for everyone, any more than I think abortion or parenting is the right choice for everyone. We have all decided to make this work, though, and would like the support of other parents, whether natural or adoptive, for the special kind of extended family we are trying to build. We feel "more than open" adoption should be the norm, and that the laws need to be completely overhauled.

    Instead, when I am trying to find information, I often feel like I am being accused of kidnapping or buying our son, or worse manipulating his parents as if I am some kind of predator.
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  23. Ah, Brandi...yeah. You will be told that, made to feel that way, at el. I am sorry.
    Unfotunatly, there are the moms that have been just too traumtized..that they are just not able to deal with an adoptive parent in any form at all. While I totally understand where they are coming form, I obviously don;t subscribe to it...rather I feel very strongly that until we can work together on reform..it pretty much won't happen. I do think the number of moms who relize that we have to make an allience is slowly growing..even if it means that some of our sisters in loss are mad at us in the process.
    You should hear some of the things I have been called..LOL.
    The hard core anti boards are a welth of information, but if you do engage or ask questions you will not be met with anything aside from hostility. That's just the fact. Too many an adoptive mom has come on in and tried to convince the moms that their pain is not valid, etc. Too many trolls have come and rubbed salt in the wounds. And they have retreated to safety.
    Have you tried AAI??? We have the the sullied reputation of allowing adoptive moms in there for education, reform etc. And the real nasty attacks are not allowed.
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